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Thread: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: NORAD played with no Canada

December 22, 2013, 6:12 pm
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by loosegravel

What happens if the USSR plays NORAD but the US does not currently control Canada? Is the card discarded without taking effect, per rule 5.2, second bullet point ("a condition expressed in the Event has not been met")?

Or does it technically take effect per rule 5.2, fourth bullet point ("the event results in no effect")? In which case since it is a permanent event, it remains in effect, and if the US player later controls Canada, then he begins receiving the benefit?

In other words, is the Canada portion of the text on the card, "If the US controls Canada...", a pre-condition for the event to take effect, or a condition for the permanent event to provide benefit?
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 22, 2013, 6:16 pm
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by nightglider1

Condition for the benefit, not for playing the event.

You can play it at any time. You check whether the DEFCON status moved to 2 and for US control of Canada at the end of each AR.
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 22, 2013, 7:08 pm
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by Paul_Edgar_au

As a follow up question

NORAD states 'this event cancelled by Quagmire'

Does that mean that it is cancelled and goes to the discard pile to be reshuffled into the deck - as opposed to removed from play for the rest of the game.

Effictivly Quagmire puts it into the discard pile - it can reappear after a reshuffle and be reactivated (?)

thanks
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 22, 2013, 7:52 pm
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by Jacovis

Paul_Edgar_au wrote:

As a follow up question

NORAD states 'this event cancelled by Quagmire'

Does that mean that it is cancelled and goes to the discard pile to be reshuffled into the deck - as opposed to removed from play for the rest of the game.

Effictivly Quagmire puts it into the discard pile - it can reappear after a reshuffle and be reactivated (?)

thanks


No, NORAD is removed from the game once played. The effect lingers, and is canceled if Quagmire is played.

Cheers!
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 22, 2013, 8:57 pm
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by Riku Riekkinen

1) NORAD takes effect (NORAD starts to be when the card is played no mayyert what)
2) NORAD activates, if DEFCON lowers to 2 during AR (not headline) & US controls Canada
3) NORAD is cancelled (but not blocked) by Quagmire (if quagmire is played before NORAD, NORAD stays in effect until the end)
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 22, 2013, 9:24 pm
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: General:: Re: ORDERS CLOSED -- Twilight Struggle Dice

December 22, 2013, 9:33 pm
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by boyce1981

Any chance any of these dice are still available? or maybe another order could go in soon?
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Reviews:: Re: Ender's Concise Overview: A Hot Game about the Cold War

December 22, 2013, 11:37 pm
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by Bearhug78

ahmedhadzi wrote:

Nice and concise.

EndersGame wrote:

Even though the rules are not super complex, it is definitely possible for experienced players to become good at the game by knowing the cards and by making strategic choices that pay off later in the game.


This could be said for just about any game. Rules are very simple though.


Yes the rules are quite simple, but the complexity of game play strategy certainly is not.

I look at this game much like I do chess. The basic game premise is quite simple, but the strategy of the game can be quite complex.

I don't find this level of complexity in most games, where every little thing that occurs requires a reassessment of your strategy. Most games have far fewer variables occurring at any one time. I do agree it's not the only game I would say this about, but they are certainly not in the majority or even common.

In saying that maybe your experience with the games you plays varies from mine, each to their own.
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: General:: Re: Need storage solution for GMT Games cards

December 22, 2013, 11:59 pm
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: General:: Re: Need storage solution for GMT Games cards

December 23, 2013, 12:10 am
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by scifiantihero

Yeah, I have a bunch with like 6-7 short piles of cards on top of everything. Definitely not ideal. Will look into cutting the tray, I like that idea! Can you stack two trays cut in half on top of the mounted board/books?
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: General:: Re: Need storage solution for GMT Games cards

December 23, 2013, 4:30 am
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by killy9999

scifiantihero wrote:

Can you stack two trays cut in half on top of the mounted board/books?
 Not really. You can try what it would be like by simply putting two counter trays on top of mounted map an rulebooks.

Also note that you need rubber bands to keep the half-tray closed.
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 23, 2013, 8:31 am
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by LennyS

Hmm...I always assumed the event was conditional: If...then. We've always played it that if the condition is not met, the event cannot be played (and is goes into the discard pile rather than out of the game.) I won't argue whether or not this is right, but doesn't it state somewhere in the rules that if conditional events aren't met, they can not happen?
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 23, 2013, 8:41 am
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by mkiefte

LennyS wrote:

Hmm...I always assumed the event was conditional: If...then. We've always played it that if the condition is not met, the event cannot be played (and is goes into the discard pile rather than out of the game.) I won't argue whether or not this is right, but doesn't it state somewhere in the rules that if conditional events aren't met, they can not happen?


NORAD is the only exception. The problem with the wording is that the "if" in this case applies to the moment at the end of a round when DEFCON is reduced, not whether the card is playable. It's the only card like that.

It's been discussed extensively in the past. I think one of the main discussions is here:
Cards with If
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 23, 2013, 9:28 am
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by loosegravel

mkiefte wrote:

NORAD is the only exception.


Michael, thanks for linking to that other thread. From what I can tell, the only basis for you making this statement is that you make it confidently, and based on your own authority. You don't refer to a rule or a FAQ.

With respect, what is the basis of your authority? Are you a designer or a playtester? Are you with GMT Games? (I do not intend this in a provoking way; I really don't know.)

Jim
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 23, 2013, 9:57 am
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by nightglider1

loosegravel wrote:

mkiefte wrote:

NORAD is the only exception.


Michael, thanks for linking to that other thread. From what I can tell, the only basis for you making this statement is that you make it confidently, and based on your own authority. You don't refer to a rule or a FAQ.

With respect, what is the basis of your authority? Are you a designer or a playtester? Are you with GMT Games? (I do not intend this in a provoking way; I really don't know.)

Jim


If I'm not mistaken, he wrote (and maintains) the VASSAL module for TS, and is one of the closest people you'll find to a "rules authority" who wasn't involved in the actual development of the game.
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 23, 2013, 10:38 am
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 23, 2013, 11:25 am
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by mkiefte

loosegravel wrote:

mkiefte wrote:

NORAD is the only exception.


Michael, thanks for linking to that other thread. From what I can tell, the only basis for you making this statement is that you make it confidently, and based on your own authority. You don't refer to a rule or a FAQ.

With respect, what is the basis of your authority? Are you a designer or a playtester? Are you with GMT Games? (I do not intend this in a provoking way; I really don't know.)

Jim


The only real authority I have is that I remember this being debated a lot and finally being resolved. I've also played quite a lot.

Pete points out that I did the TS module which enforces most of the rules. Because of that, I pay extra special attention to rulings.
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: Rules:: Re: NORAD played with no Canada

December 23, 2013, 11:38 am
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Thread: Twilight Struggle:: General:: How do you introduce this game?

December 23, 2013, 12:42 pm
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by Miller4h9

Hello, boardgamegeek users! I got this game for my birthday a couple of months back, and since then I haven't felt much enthusiasm for or against this game. Part of this is because I haven't even played a full game yet. I've played it 5 times so far, the longest game being 7 rounds, the others lasting 3, 3, 2, and even 1 round. Aside from one of the 3 round games, none of these has ended as a result of an automatic victory; we just stopped because we (as in my opponent) didn't really want to play anymore. It seems like everyone I ask to play has a hard time understanding what is happening. My friend even read through the rules with a fine toothed comb and our 3 turns took 5 hours. How can I best introduce this game so that I can have a meaningful experience with the game as soon as possible?

As a somewhat tangential question, how do you keep track of the little influence chits? I've found at least 4 sitting around the house (and other houses) since I've purchased it, leading me to believe there are probably many more out there.

P.S. I feel like I have a relatively decent grip of the rules and gameplay, although I presume I have no feel for the inner strategies. Also, I usually play as America because my understanding is that it has a handicap at the beginning.
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Reply: Twilight Struggle:: General:: Re: How do you introduce this game?

December 23, 2013, 12:54 pm
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by killy9999

I've introduced several people to TS with mostly good results. I begin with a general description of the game: it is a two player game, its purpose is to gain victory points by spreading political influence, all actions are driven by cards the game takes 10 turns. Then I describe the map: division of the world into regions, connections between countries, stability and its relation to control and finally battleground countries. Then I describe the cards: their association to one of the sides or neutrality, Op value, events, choosing between Ops and event when playing your or neutral card, lack of such choice when playing opponents card. I describe one time events and events that require some other events first. Then I describe things I can do with operations: adding influence, coups, realignments and space race. Then I explain turn structure: headline event and action rounds. Later I explain scoring, Defcon and military operations. Finally I describe how deck is divided into three parts and how new cards are added.

That said I think that you're gaming experience with first time players will only partially depend on your explanation of the rules. I've seen first time players put up a very competitive and fast game (I have tens of games under my belt) but I've also seen people playing on a very average level with lots of time required for decision making (7 hours for 6 or 7 turns). It really depends with whom you're playing.
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